Loma Linda Sermon ~ How to have Sex with God

Hyveth Williams:

How to Have Sex with God


February 2, 2002

The speaker was Hyveth Williams, senior pastor of one of our two leading churches in the Loma Linda, California, area: the Loma Linda Hill Church. In addition, she is a religion professor at Loma Linda University and has a radio broadcast that reaches a major part of the entire area of millions of people east of Los Angeles.

The occasion was Sligo’s Seventh Annual Retreat for Women. The advertised retreat location was the “Seventh-day Adventist World Headquarters, 12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland 20904.”

The retreat was actually held at the mammoth Sligo Seventh-day Adventist Church, 7700 Carroll Avenue, in Takoma Park, home church of our General Conference, North American Division, and Columbia Union Conference staff.

The official announcement, mailed to thousands of our church members, said that “Dr. Hyveth Williams” would be the featured speaker and would give the two keynote addresses.

The brochure mentions that Hyveth has been “speaking widely on this subject in recent months.” So what you are about to read has been presented to large numbers of Adventists as Hyveth travels from place to place, teaches in her church and college courses, and regularly broadcasts “Adventism” to millions of non-Adventists.

Thousands of women, some with serious financial or family problems, had gathered to hear special messages at Sligo about the enabling grace of Christ. Instead, they were presented with messages by Hyveth about how to show off your body and have sex with God.

Christianity is pure and holy, and we thank God for it. Yet Hyveth makes it into something vile. A normal person hearing or reading her sermons would conclude that Hyveth is oversexed. A worldling, living a loose life, would say she was spending her off-hours doing bad things.

Back when I was young, only married men could be Adventist ministers; Hyveth is a single woman. In one of these two sermons at Sligo, she says she is proud to be a single Adventist woman pastor of one of our more important churches. Apparently, our leaders agree; for she is regularly showered with speaking appointments throughout North America, Australia, New Zealand, and Europe.

Everywhere she goes, Hyveth’s sermons flaunt her contempt for the Spirit of Prophecy, historic standards of appearance and conduct, and many of our most important beliefs. She teaches a wide variety of radical, even weird, teachings. In July 1999, we printed excerpts from a sermon series Hyveth delivered in Australia (Teachings of Hyveth Williams [WM–891-892]). Even the extremely liberal church members living there—accustomed to homosexuality, liquor drinking, and similar things in their midst—were astonished at her peculiar ideas.

Wherever she goes, church members are shocked at Hyveth’s presentations; and some leave the church, never to return. Yet leadership seems not to care.

The evidence has been piling up for years, that anything goes in our church—as long as you do not get in trouble with the police or speak negatively about church leadership. Those are the only two “no-no’s.” The second of Hyveth’s February 2 sermons, especially, proves this to be true.

No one dares denounce her sermons as vile and revolting. No one dares reprimand her. Not one church leader, on any level, would have the nerve to suggest that she even tone them down.

Listening to audiotapes of these sermons (and I have audiotape copies of both), she comes across as a brazen women, who challenges anyone to get in her way. She will speak whatever passes through her head and she expects the audience to receive it as counsel from Heaven.

It is an unfortunate fact that, for one reason or another, first, our church leaders in North America live to appease our liberals. Second, both our leaders and our liberals placate our feminists. And all of them—along with black Adventist leaders—extol the virtues of the only black woman senior pastor of a major church in the denomination. A church leader daring to reprove Hyveth might not be promoted to higher offices.

Church members in the audience feel helpless under such a barrage of Hyveth’s shockers. What can they do? Leadership does not care. So they snicker, then laugh, and soon begin applauding. When the meeting adjourns, they go their way, thinking they have been royally entertained. But subtly, their minds have been changed; their standards of belief and conduct have been dragged into the gutter.

Yet, if appeals are made to leadership to put a stop to this growing apostasy on so many levels, the one pleading will be told that he is a troublemaker. He will also be told that there is no cause for alarm: “The Seventh-day Adventist denomination is not like all the churches before it, which were ruined by disobedience to God’s laws and standards. Our church,” they will tell you “is the final church and therefore lives a charmed life. We can sin all we want, but we will still go through to the end and have our continuing sins miraculously taken away when Christ appears in the clouds of heaven. We are teflon-coated; God does not dare set us aside. He is stuck with us.”

The truth is that, in the near future, God is going to go through our church with a broom and purge it when the National Sunday Law is enacted. Whole churches will go out, swept away like chaff; and the remnant that remain will, by faith in Christ, keep the commandments of God and cling to the testimony of Jesus. They will have the loyalty to God that the majority have despised.

And loyalty is a key issue. Many among us today are disloyal to their Creator. Many among us honor men of rank and prestige more than they honor God and His Word. They fear the frown of their pastor or conference president, yet have no fear of their Maker; for they have accepted the lying report that all their cherished sins—past, present, and future—were washed away at Calvary. And, as long as they are on the church rolls, there is absolutely no possibility they will have to answer for any of them in the Judgment.

Loma Linda must be a dissolute place in which to live. It surely has no shame that it keeps Hyveth as a senior pastor and university religion teacher. A portion of the General Budget, funded by church offerings throughout North America, goes to support Loma Linda University and pay Hyveth’s salary. This should not be.

Hyveth gave two sermons during that one-day retreat at our world headquarters’ church. On the brochure, the morning sermon was listed as “Experiencing the Presence of God.” But on the audio­tape label it is entitled, “The Seven Steps to a Sure Salvation.” I have given her first (morning) sermon a more accurate title: “Saved People Can Disregard Standards.”

The brochure listed her second (afternoon) sermon as “Whole in One: Single and Loving It.” But, on the tape, it was “Christ in You, the Hope of Salvation.” By the time she gave this second talk, her voice was somewhat hoarse from all the yelling she had done that morning. My title for this second remarkable presentation, given that afternoon, is “How to Have Sex with God”; for that is the point that it works toward—sex between His penis and your vagina.

Oh, you don’t believe it! Order the tapes for yourself and listen to them—especially the second one! With a credit card, you can order them from But hurry! As soon as this tract is released, they may take those tapes (especially the second one) off the market, as the ABC’s did with the Nomad book, when I earlier told what was in it. (But, if they do, you can obtain copies from us.)

It should be noted that, in the following excerpts from Hyveth’s two February 2, 2002 sermons, the innumerable quantity of her stutterings, repetitions, and false starts has been omitted. Hyveth is actually a very poor speaker, a person with a very average mind. Her words come out faster than her brain is moving. All the “And she, and she, and she,” and “and uh, so uh,” and “yah know,” are generally omitted. I have many black friends, both men and women, who are solid historic Adventists with deep, penetrating minds. It is astounding that Hyveth is permitted to operate a circus, at Loma Linda, and teach blatant errors to our future ministers, physicians, dentists, and nurses, when so many qualified blacks are denied the opportunity. Although her thoughts and words are scattered, her liberal errors come across very clearly. Also omitted from these excerpts are nearly all the comic stories she told to dull the consciences of the audience.

Here are the abbreviations used in the following two sermon transcripts: [L] = laughter. [LL] = uproarious laughter. [A] = applause. [LA] = laughter and applause. [LLA] = uproarious laughter and applause. What Hyveth said was at times so astounding that the audience went wild with lengthy, hilarious laughter. Little wonder she is in demand, by our leaders, as a public speaker; for she does an outstanding job of crumbling our beliefs and standards while, at the same time, creating a carnival of excitement. Amid such entertainment, the conscience is lulled to sleep and the hearers are more likely to buy the whole package. The label on the package reads “extreme liberalism.” Hyveth is proving herself an invaluable asset to the worldlings in our denomination.

The hundreds of women attending this one-day retreat heard both of Hyveth’s sermons. She delivered the first one at 10:00 a.m., followed at 11:15 by eight smaller meetings, only one of which each attendee could go to. Seven more small meetings were held at 2:00 p.m. Then, at 4:00 p.m., everyone gathered in the main sanctuary to hear Hyveth explain a startling sex life they could have.

Sligo 7th Annual Retreat for Women

Seventh-day Adventist World Headquarters

Sligo Church, Maryland

Session I: 10:00 a.m.

“Saved People Can Disregard Standards”

Hyveth Williams

Here are a few excerpts from the first of the two sermons that day:

[Hyveth tells a very ridiculous joke.] “It is a funny story, but it illustrates that I believe the Lord has given me a word to speak to any audience to, that I speak . .

“[Hyveth mentions that some people are upset when she preaches that she has absolute certainty that she is already saved.] They think they know so much about their salvation that they are afraid to acknowledge that I am saved. You know, just the other day I was speaking, and I had the audacity to say I was saved. And afterward people came to me and said, ‘You know, you shouldn’t be announcing that you are saved’ . . And they started to say, ‘Sister White—,’ and I said, ‘Before you say “Sister White,” how many of you can say you are related to her [L]? Because, you know, I want authentic people to tell me what I ought to know.’ And having admitted that they are not related, and to try to draw on her credibility to buttress theirs [L] . . I said I know I am saved . .

“And now this morning, I want to share with you seven steps you can take, that you do not [have to] do, but seven signs to show you have a sure salvation . . Before you leave this auditorium this morning, I want you to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are indeed saved. That you’ve got to know that you have this gift. Because this salvation is sure. As night comes into day, as the star yields to the sun, this salvation is sure. It is for the body of believers that transcends denominational barriers, the lines that separate God’s children from one another.

“[Hyveth reads 1 Peter 1:13-22 in a modern translation, as an outstanding example of salvation already past. But her reading includes these significant phrases: ‘As obedient children . . be holy . . Since you have an obedience to the truth . . For you have been born again . . through the living, enduring Word of God.’]

“I hate it when people tell me what to do . .

“ ‘Gird up your minds.’ Peter was very fussy about how he dressed up . . Peter like to dress fancy . . Jesus said to him, ‘Someone else will gird thee’ . . Peter took longer to gird up his clothes than the other disciples, and it was a joke among them. So when Peter said ‘Gird up your minds,’ he knew of which he spoke . .

“ ‘Keep sober in spirit’ . . Revelation 17:2. The cup speaks of doctrines mingled with a little truth, and stuff that has no relationship with God, His Word. And Peter says, ‘In the last days, you are going to drink deeply from this cup. You are going to think that doctrine is all you need . . If you can quote some 2300-day prophecy and speak in tongues, that is all you need. You are drunk. Need to be sober . .

[Still talking about girding up:] “You can tell that I’m a clothes horse, and I have no apology to make. I’m proud I’m a woman. There are some people who think that if you’re a Christian and a female, the dowdier you are look [L], the holier you are [L]. I’m not of that faith [LLA]!

“You know, God made me a woman and I thank Him every single day [LLA]; because there are some things I can do with my hair, face, and body, that the men just dare not try [LLA]. And I believe women should be women . . I designed a dress that was absolutely gorgeous and Afro-centric [L]. And I was tough [LL]. And I designed this dress with an opening down the front [LL] . . and with big gold buttons in golden sockets . . And as I got dressed, one of the buttons popped off . . [A funny story follows.] . .

“ ‘Do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance’. . Let’s talk about this conforming to the formula: There is an idea among conservative Christians, that a church that is like the world is one in which women dress nicely. And it is a warped theology. It is trying to tell us that when a woman tries to dress nicely, and she puts on matching errings, she is worldly . . They tell us, ‘Don’t wear your dress a certain way, because it will stimulate the men,’ you see; and there is that kind of theology . . But it is wrong; it is not Biblical.

“Don’t you understand that the very angels, in the presence of God, primp themselves before they enter in the presence of God [L]; and you know, we shouldn’t deny anyone that opportunity and ability.

“And so, when he says ‘Don’t pattern yourself from the world’ . . he’s not talking about the addition of extra things . . But there are people who will never wear an erring, but their hearts are filled with pride and arrogance [A], that deny God.

“I could tell you about my own attempts to be conforming, but I will move on to number 5.

“Number 5: ‘Be holy yourselves in all your behavior’ . . The word for ‘behavior’ is ‘conversation’ . . In order to have this sure salvation, you had to be born again . . When he [Peter] tells you to be holy, he is not telling you to be something you already are not. For the moment you were born again; in order to have the sure salvation, you had to be born again. And in every born-again person is breathed the breath of life, which is the breath of God . . The very breath, the Spirit breath you breathe, is God’s holiness imparted to us. So when God says ‘Be holy,’ it is because He has breathed His breath into us, and He wants you to be that which you already are! He says to be holy.

“And then he says ‘Conduct yourselves in fear.’

[She tells a funny story.] “If you name God as your Father, be sure He will call for a paternity test [L] . . The blood that is running in this holy body of yours must be holy . . [God says:] ‘You better be sure I impregnated you. You better be sure I’m the one you were sleeping with, when you were sleeping with [her emphasis]. For I’m going to ask for a DNA test, and when it comes, you had better behave like you and I have been having an affair. Praise God! . .”

[She concludes with another funny story:] “When I would be introduced to audiences, I would not be called ‘Pastor Williams,’ but be called ‘Sister Williams.’ I would then stand and place my hand on his shoulder and say, ‘You and I are not related. If you were my true brother, you would not try to denounce me in this public way . . You would not use racial or other barriers.’ ”

Sligo 7th Annual Retreat for Women

Seventh-day Adventist World Headquarters

Sligo Church, Maryland

Session 2: 4:00 p.m.

“How to Have Sex with God”

Hyveth Williams

Hyveth was only warming up with that first sermon. In this second one, she blasted them out of their chairs.

“. . And there was a crisis in the denomination at that time, that women were being prevented from baptizing the people they studied with. It was a crisis, and people were up in arms, and churches were being torn apart—just because women wanted to serve the Lord.

“And even in spite of all that upheaval, God provided for me bundle after bundle after bundle for me to go on with my life. When He did that, there were some people who were concerned. I remember there were some people who said, ‘Who are you? Why are you progressing? What are you doing? And what is going on? And some of the women were harshest in their criticism. What is going on? Why? You?

“And, you know, one of my favorite preachers says that when that happens to you, you need to look to the person whose saying that to you and say ‘God’s favor ain’t fair [L]! You don’t know why you’re getting over, because God’s favor is up on you, because God’s favor don’t know any person, is no respecter of persons.

God’s favor is not fair, and it wasn’t for Ruth; because of all the people gleaning, she was the one that God said, ‘Leave the bundles for’ . .

“And when that happened, it filled her with hope. And not only did it fill her with hope, but she became very excited and agitated, because that’s what happens when we begin to dream again, isn’t it?

“We pace the floor. We can’t wait for tomorrow. We have dreams and visions, and we want to get on with it. And we want to be done with this. And so was Ruth. Just very activated about all of this, to the point where it was driving Naomi crazy.

“And Naomi decided to do something about it,—and that brings us to chapter 3 [of the book of Ruth].

“She was filled with hope; Ruth was filled with hope. And so Naomi said, ‘My daughter, shall I not seek some rest for you, and you’re wearing yourself out, pacing up and down, trying to figure out what did Boaz mean leaving these for me? Did he like me? Is he promised—? You know what I mean. We drive people crazy and they can’t stand us any more. Did he like me and da da da [L].

“God gives us one little hope [L] and we blow it out of proportion [L]; and Naomi said, ‘How can I get this woman to calm down and get her some rest?’

“And so she came up with this idea: She said, ‘Boaz is my kinsman.’ She should have said that in the beginning and gotten Ruth a good job. But now that she sees that God’s favor is up on her, she gets into the circle to say that [L].

“Yah know, I gotta tell you something [L]. When I was going to school at CUC [Columbia Union College] . . [She mentions that she had a difficult time there financially for a time; then she says:] . . One year, several years ago, I preached on this very platform [at Sligo Church] for the Annual Council of the General Conference. You know, they had the big Annual Council. And they invited me to preach. And I preached. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon me. I just let go, and I let God, and it was an awesome anointing. [In her talks, Hyveth is quite fond of bragging on herself.]

“And when I was done, these very conservative men, dressed in their black suits and white shirts, jumped on this stage and lifted me up [LL], and shouted ‘Hallelujah’ [L]! And the Spirit of the Lord came upon this place.

“And there was this one particular guy who said to me several times [when she was earlier attending CUC], ‘Why don’t you give up this idea of preaching, and get a job as a teacher or a nurse, ‘cause you know God is never going to use a woman [L]. Regularly told me that, in this, not in this building, but in the old building [probably in the CUC building, half a block down Carroll Avenue], he regularly told me this.

“And [at the Annual Council] he pushed his way [L], pushed his way [LL] through everybody [A], everybody; and he went over and took the mike, and he said, ‘You see this woman here? I gave her the opportunity [LL] to be who she is today [L]!

“I said to myself, ‘It’s a good thing God was looking in the other direction’ [L].

But this was what Naomi was trying to do with Ruth, trying to, trying to get in on the action, so she could say, ‘You see Ruth where she is, I made her! I put her up there.’ She told her to do seven things which, if we do them, the hope and glory and presence of God can be real in our lives; can be real if we follow those seven instructions which Naomi gave to Ruth.

Number 1: ‘Wash yourself.’ This means wash yourself for romance and sexual intimacy. This is the first spiritual lesson: If you want Christ to be in you the hope of glory, you got to wash yourself in the refreshing waters of the Holy Spirit . .

“Second, ‘Anoint yourself.’ Get a new attitude, even if you don’t feel like you want to be good. Anoint yourself and assume the attitude that you are good; and before the day is over you will become good . .

“And ‘put on your best clothes,’ and get ready for romance. Now, I don’t need any help from Naomi to put on my best clothes. I create opportunities! I’m always having these events where you can only wear formal clothes only [L]. They haven’t figured this out yet, so don’t send this tape there [L]. I like to buy gorgeous evening gowns; and in my church there’s not much opportunity to put on my best clothes. So I create events for that [L]. So I don’t need any instruction how to put on my best clothes for romance. The only problem is, somehow, romance never comes [L]. But I keep on trying, you see [L]. I’m like the energizer bunny [L]; I never give up [LLA]!

“So she tells her ‘Put on your best clothes and prepare for something that hasn’t happened yet. Prepare yourself for where you want to go’ . . Sometimes you don’t feel like dressing up. Sometimes you don’t feel like being good . . When you put on this robe, Jesus bought for you, you begin to strut a certain way; you don’t just walk, you flaunt it [L]. You gotta swing [LLA]. [The women recognize she means swing her hips and bounce her breasts.] You know what I mean [LL]. When you first put it on, you don’t feel like it, but you begin to feel your body start making moves and motions because you wanna walk right, and sleep right, and go to the right places; you want someone to come into your life, who will admire your dress [How shallow can a sermon get!]. So get on your best dress now [LA]. Don’t wait till tomorrow.

“Put on your best clothes for a little class, so you can get—and start with the underthings [LL]! You see, start with the underthings [L], you know.

When I was a teenager growing up, anything would work under the underneath [L]. You know, my grandmother used to tell me all the time, ‘Suppose you had an accident [LL]! So start with the little places, the secret places. So dress from the inside out [L] . .

“And get ready, get ready for romance!—And then go down to the threshing floor! . .

“Naomi said ‘Go down to the threshing floor’ . . We’ve been living up in the hills, need to go down into the valley of the shadow of death, then discover God is your Emmanuel, always with you [L].

“ ‘Wait till he has finished eating and drinking,’ she said. She said, ‘When you get to the threshing floor, shut up. Be quiet. Wait for someone else to say it . . Wait till you’re connected with the man before you start talking . . Be quiet and listen to the new instructions.

“Number six: ‘When he lies down, notice the place where he lies down.’ That means when he lies down for sexual intercourse. That means that they did that on the threshing floor, with the people who worked there. [!]

“And so, Naomi said to Ruth, ‘When he lies down for sexual intimacy, find out exactly where he’s lying down . .

“Find out where God is lying down. The God of heaven, holy Trinity; they are lying down on earth, in the hope that we’re going to come and find out where they are, so we can get into some intimate relation with them . .

When you find out where God is, there is one last thing you ought to do. Listen to what Naomi told Ruth what to do. Listen to what she said. She said, ‘When you get there, you shall uncover his feet and lie down.’ Well, did you know that ‘feet’ means his genital organs. When a man wants to get married, he uncovers his feet. That’s his way of expressing his intention. It is true. That’s what she said .

“Remember when Isaiah said, ‘I saw the heavens open and I saw the cheribim and seraphim around God, and they had wings, and they covered their eyes, and they had wings and they covered their feet, and two they flew with. —It was not the ones you walk with, dear! [In a sarcastic tone.] They covered their genitals, that Isaiah saw . .

“And this is what Naomi said to Ruth: ‘And when you get there, you should uncover his penis and lie down next to him, to show your intention of being married to him and you’re ready for intimacy . .

And now, I’m sure you’re going to ask how I can draw a spiritual lesson from this [L]. It’s simple and easy.

God wants to impregnate you, so it can be said, This holy thing, this thing, this seed that is coming in your stomach is a holy one . . He wants to romance with you. He wants to marry you. He wants to make babies with you . . So Christ in you can be the hope of glory. He wants you to be intimate with Him. He wants you to uncover His secret places, and say, I’m ready! Let’s get it on [LL]! God wants that with us. And only us women can understand that, because we cherish this; we yearn for this undiluted intimacy! . . This is what God wants us to be . . [She tells a story of miners finding gold nuggets.]

“It’s going to glow out of you, streams and light and hope, and you will be a blessing to everyone . . So go from this place and have Christ in you, the hope of His manifest glory on each. God bless you [A]. [End of second sermon.]


Esau sold his birthright for a meal. Hyveth sells her wares in as cheap a market—an hour of laughs; yet, during it, she is destroying the faith of old and young. She does not lead her audience on a journey to a high plane of experience, but on a rapid descent into a low level of conversation and conduct.

Hyveth can toss in the phrase, “Christ in you, the hope of glory” all she wants, as if that sanctifies what she is saying. She does it to mask a sordid objective: to get her audience to come down to her level of sensual thinking.

Hyveth uses shocking words and concepts to shake the sensibilities of her audience. Many men in the world obey the same master. They continually salt and pepper their conversations with stunning phrases about manure, toilets, odors, body parts, and sex—thinking, as she does, that by continually shocking their hearers, they show great force of personality and strength of intellect. They think it makes them “real men.” Hyveth imagines that all her talk about slinky dresses and hunting for men makes her more of a woman.

In addition, you will have noticed in the above two sermons Hyveth repeatedly twists Scripture. Whether or not she realizes it, she is turning it into a lie.

For example, it would be redundant for God to say “be holy” if we were automatically holy; yet Hyveth says that is what the passage means.

Another example: She indicates that Boaz’ threshing floor is a night-after-night whorehouse, where Boaz and his workers continually have relationships with one another. Yet the Bible specifically says he went there to thresh out the day’s grain. When finished, Boaz doubtless slept there each night in order to guard the grain (which was worth a lot) from theft.

You should not overlook the fact that, as the worldling uses shallow ridicule to speak disparagingly of religious things, Hyveth uses the same technique to destroy confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy. If a college physics student said he did not want to learn anything about Isaac Newton’s concepts, except from Newton’s close relatives, he would be recognized as having an inferior mind. Not a few would conclude he was somewhat crazy.

Listening to the second tape, it is quite obvious that Hyveth lingered repeatedly over the word, “underthings,” speaking slowly in order to maximize the shock effect. Immediately after that, to heighten the effect still more, she mentioned “your secret parts.” As if that suggestive statement was not enough to clarify what she meant, she quickly said that, when she was a teenager, it did not matter what underthings she wore, but her grandmother would warn her not to have “an accident.”

All this was totally uncalled for in a sermon supposedly about how to increase faith in God. Every mature adult in the audience knew exactly what Hyveth was referring to. There was no reason for it to be said in the pulpit of a church. It was obviously done for its shock effect, to make up for the fact that she has average abilities, a poor command of English grammar, and a tendency to stutter her words.

Hyveth is determined to make a name for herself, and she knows she cannot do it merely by her blatant liberalism. Other Adventist speakers, many with outstanding abilities, are already doing that quite well.

So she strives for words and concepts which are peculiar, even embarrassing to her listeners. If she wants to stand out as unique, she surely is succeeding. That which she lacks in spirituality and depth of thought, she makes up for by her comments about bathrooms, dressing rooms, and bedrooms. In my opinion, Hyveth’s mind is filled with herself and her carnal desires.

When an Adventist has repudiated the Spirit of Prophecy and our historic teachings, and believes he is saved in his sins, he is able to slide down the slope of immorality to the very bottom. Only Hyveth knows how far down that slope she has already gone. A person cannot keep telling others how much he yearns for something before he secretly starts going after it. — vf


The two tapes discussed in our recent tract set (Hyveth Williams: How to Have Sex with God [WM–1073-1074]), are available from us as a two-tape set for $7.50 + $2.50 = $10.00. Ask for the “Hyveth Williams Feb 2, 2002 Tapes.”